BAL stat (not the weapons) is in a poor state at the moment.

#1
Let me repeat. This is less about the BAL weapons themselves. More so the BAL stat itself.

To be honest, the BAL stat and abilities for the longest time have been lack luster. But with the most recent changes and buffs to the other damage classes, BAL has fallen behind considerably.

Any thing that the BAL stat can do. Any other offensive stat can do better. Let's see some of the arguments I usually hear in defense of BAL:


"BAL has the most range with [sniper]!"
BAL does not have exclusivity to [sniper]. STR can even obtain it and get a free silencer whilst converting it.

"H_MG has the most base damage (21) of the heavy weapons."
Again, this can be converted from BAL to STR and replacing the never used [light suppression] proc into a more useful [bleed] proc. Not to mention that it has 3 rolls instead of 1, increasing the chances to miss for your maximum damage mark. Not only that. Other Heavy weapons have their fun little niches to make them more interesting/better/stronger, and H_s_Axe now does the most damage at base with 22 damage innately with out any upgrades.

"The Shotgun is really good."
Effectively a near, melee-ranged weapon that is outclassed by other melee weapons its size and up. Not mention goes against what BAL is expected to be... ranged.

"BAL is meant to kite. You're doing BAL wrong if you're not kiting every one away with your superior range."
Oh boy, this is a big one. But a very, very wrong one. Firstly, MOV is not exclusive to BAL. BAL may have MOV reducing abilities, but they are short lived and usually at the detriment to your damage. STR, EXD and MAE all have superior movement and movement control abilities compared to BAL; some examples are STR [prone] procs, tether beam, dash, rush, aggression(with jetpack), EXD [prone] procs, gravity bomb, dynamic charge, all yellow stones, most dark stones, and some white stones. Not only is MOV not useful in interior/closed areas against melee weapons, but STR, EXD and MAE all have ranged capabilities.

"Having problem with ranged attacks? Use [Cover] by simply crouching!"
Cover is great against BAL. All BAL has against cover is tracer, that lasts until the end of next turn, if it hits. EXD half damage now ignores cover, hitting need not apply. MAE has meteor and a neat green stone call alteration that has BAL weapons using MAE to ignore cover completely.

"BAL has AOE! Overwatch is an awesome AOE ability that stops the enemy from moving or take damage and H_MG can line fire."
BAL has the worst AOE. Period.
If the enemy doesn't move when you place overwatch on them, you have wasted your ability. It is not a good ability because of this. All the arguments can be made that the enemy has to stop moving or take damage. But why bother (other than having little other choice for BAL) when other AOEs are instant and deal more damage. Cleave with heavy melee weapons can not only cover a 12m AOE diameter, but [Swipe] can hit some one twice in the way it is written. Overdrive can't even be used with H_MG because of the silly, single target stipulation. Following onto H_MG itself. As mentioned about its 3 roll weakness. H_m_Magika and L_a_Chemthrower also has the exact same line AOE. Not only that, MAE and EXD are choc full of AOE weapons and abilities. STR having less AOE capabilities with just cleave, and [swipe], but they have the distinct advantage of converting EXD and MAE weapons to STR, some times for the better, like launcher for example.

"But you forgot about underslung launcher when it comes to BAL AOE!"
A launcher that only can fire what EXD can do better. Not only do the damaging fuse items use the EXD damage stat, but EXD can also use the utility fuse items with combination of any EXD attack when they have the 3 EXD set bonus. EXD has a lot of utility in this regard.

"You can reload and fire endlessly (almost)!"
This is about all BAL can do, and it is very over exaggerated how beneficial this is. Given you can either use a standard action or movement action to reload. It is not so detrimental and needing curbing by BAL specific gear/abilities. Every one can make use of the extended mags, and that's usually all you need. Some BAL weapons don't even need to reload.
The stat specific back slot pieces also highlight how the developers (maybe beta testers too?) seem to over value a free reload.
Example:
Gunrunner_Gear_(Permanent)+1 BAL
Once per combat, you may reload your equipped Ballistic Weapons as a Free Action.
+1 Bonus damage with BAL Weapons


Infused_Magika_Cloth_(Permanent)+1 MAE
+2 Bonus Damage with MAE Weapons & Abilities
The penalty of being a phage is reduced by 1


ExoFrame_(Permanent)This item requires installation at a hospital or clinic
+1 STR
Equipped weapons are considered to have the Extended_Reach_(Permanent) equipped. This does not affect weapons that cannot have their range increased.
+1 Bonus damage with STR Weapons.


Demo_Rig_(Permanent)+1 EXD
You may spend a movement action to detonate a primed [Fuse] item immediately as a free action.


Although Demo Rig seems to be missing an extra bonus damage like with the other back pieces. Gunrunner has still the least desirable ability attached to it. And it is also a use once per combat. Not only that, the bonus damage is very niche stat tacked on as it is easy to max out your bonus damage cap with several BAL weapons and a heavy calibur alone. Making this BAL specific backpiece near worthless compared to how it was before its nerf as a free weapon swap.

"BAL has some good abilities like.... Overwatch!"
No, bad! We've already explained why overwatch is bad.

"Ammo belt!"
Free reload every 3rd round; rounds 3, 6, 9, etc. That's worse than the free reload on gungunner. And we've explained why free reloads are over valued. Try again.

"Charged shot!"
Again. As briefly mentioned up before. Bonus damage niche that wastes potential by not synergising with most BAL weapons, especially ones with the heavy calibur attachment and bonus damage procs.

"Magazine toss?"
Sure. Let's grab some BAL buddies to be sub-optimal together!

"Overdrive! Gotcha, one good BAL ability!"
Alright. Overdrive is some what useful, if it were not the fact that STR heavy weapons get this for free with no cool down regardless of hit or miss. And that you cannot use this on H_MG's line AOE attack (maybe even shot gun's spread too?). Overdrive has a 3 round cooldown regardless if you hit or miss on not one, but two attacks. You're sacrificing an ability slot that has to roll once to hit, then rolling a second time (the actually ability part) to be any use. A double gamble for a semi-useful, but not great ability.

"What else is there? Target identifier?"
This is a good ability for H_MG. That's it.

Won't go into the other MOV reducing abilities that are not even worth the time to discuss, nor equip as an ability. As I've addressed it in the kiting and cover segments. But oh, we also have the worst pet companion too with [light suppression].


TL;DR: BAL has the worst utility. The worst damage out put. The worst AOE capabilities. Nothing is unique about BAL other than a couple free reloads. All other offensive stats are either better, or can convert BAL weapons to their stat to make it better. The BAL stat just straight up sucks at the moment.
 
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#2
i find that your glossing over some pretty importent fact about the BAL stat

1st is that BAL char can perform just as well in melee range than long range, unlike STR weapon that have to get in melee or equip a primitive range weapon as backup. tossing al STR ability out the window and lowering there damage due to the weapon being improvised, unless being a neko with the creative engi racial. same with MAE weapon that will have to reload at some point unlike BAL or go in melee with yet again as damage reduction due to being improvised in melee

2nd the HMG the big boy weapon in the BAL flavor. its 3 hit nature is not really a drawback but more of a balanced trade off. sure you wont hit its full damage most of the time. but atleast even if you hit once you still apply 1/3 of it damage + your BAL and any other damage buff or status effect you may have put on it. makeing it way more consistent damage over a all or nothing gamble

3rd the shotgun have the same damage potential as any other medium weapon wich is 16. but get 4 more damage on a 11+roll AND lower status effect chance requirement than any medium weapon wich make it very competitive in the medium weapon league. its superior damage potential over other choice of weaponry being balanced by its short range nature

4th the underbarrel launcher. while yes being not being as good as a medium class EXD weapon. its an extra weapon you get ready to go at all time, not takeing a extra hand slot. it also give you the benefit of a demo rig of not needing to prime any grenade you trow tossed in. well worth it. but wait there is more. its not even on the banned or restricted weapon list like the medium EXD weapon is https://gyazo.com/225f27a87be8bca58bcd8717e55ef7ce

5th charge shot being bad o_O ? its a 2 round cooldown that apply 6 extra damage to your attack. it get insane value on the HMG as you only need to hit 1 of your 3 attack to do 7+6BAL +6bonus =19 damage aoe and thats at the very minimum. sure if you run heavy caliber with a 2 hander you dont get as much value. but thats not the ability being bad. even adding 4 damage as a free action it still good

6th overdrive while working in a similar way than cleave you. forget to mention that on hit, it let you attack an extra target in RANGE thats 30 meter away for regular BAL weapon or INFINITY for a sniper wich is again unless you dont have a LOS a free shot at anyone you want in the fight thats a big leg up over cleave that require 2 ppl to be huging each other in melee range to be used

7th while magasine toss not being the best thing around in most fight as it require you to be in a team you can use it to give your whole BAL buddy team burn proc at the cost of a move action. and if you want to be cheeky. all use a underbarrel launcher and use it to all load a speciality grenade into it. for either mass AOE or cover the whole enemy side of the battle field in flame with incendiary grenade. or mass emp. at the cost of a single grenade. its cheeky but funny.

TLDR BAL is fine you just need to not only look at the drawback but the pro too. otherwise every weapon class/ ability is the whorst.

ps sorry for any typo english is not my native language
 
#3
While feedback is always appreciated, suggestions from the player base on how we could improve things is even more so. Saying that a stat sucks is fine and all but it doesn't help us improve the system.

A few things I want to note:

All damage stats have a good toolkit available to them, and that toolkit includes the weapons. EXD weapons excell at AOE, MAE excel at procs, and STR excel in melee range. BAL weapons excel at range, and have utility that aids in keeping others at range.

Light suppression is a fantastic tool for keeping those pesky melee builds at bay, removing -4 mov if you manage to hit them. Pair that with kneecap and even mov oriented melee builds are going to find themselves being kited hard.

If you exclude the weapons from the toolkit of course it is going to seem lacking.

I personally think BAL is fine, though I will agree I feel some of the BAL abilities are lacking. But other than a few specific abilites I see no issues with the BAL stat.
 
#4
While feedback is always appreciated, suggestions from the player base on how we could improve things is even more so. Saying that a stat sucks is fine and all but it doesn't help us improve the system.
It would be pointless to suggest some thing until the problem is first recognized. As some seem to think it is not a problem as the post above yours also suggests. You've recognise that the BAL abilities are lacking at the very least!

Also I don't think you red all the points I made. As you seem to be arguing points I've explained. You gave -4 mov from light suppression as an answer. Some thing that's easily overcome by Dash if the enemy is melee STR or simply the enemy is using range back. Making it pointless, and you just halved your damage for nothing.
 
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#5
Since this was a longer post. Needed time to address it.

i find that your glossing over some pretty importent fact about the BAL stat

1st is that BAL char can perform just as well in melee range than long range, unlike STR weapon that have to get in melee or equip a primitive range weapon as backup. tossing al STR ability out the window and lowering there damage due to the weapon being improvised, unless being a neko with the creative engi racial. same with MAE weapon that will have to reload at some point unlike BAL or go in melee with yet again as damage reduction due to being improvised in melee
This is incorrect. Since you're addressing the weapons. H_MG is better damage using STR because bleed is a better proc than light suppression. STR can make use of [sniper] BAL weapons, whilst it lowers damage, it gains the bleed proc and the utility that STR has to kite and lock down opponents better than BAL.

2nd the HMG the big boy weapon in the BAL flavor. its 3 hit nature is not really a drawback but more of a balanced trade off. sure you wont hit its full damage most of the time. but atleast even if you hit once you still apply 1/3 of it damage + your BAL and any other damage buff or status effect you may have put on it. makeing it way more consistent damage over a all or nothing gamble
Above addressed H_MG.

3rd the shotgun have the same damage potential as any other medium weapon wich is 16. but get 4 more damage on a 11+roll AND lower status effect chance requirement than any medium weapon wich make it very competitive in the medium weapon league. its superior damage potential over other choice of weaponry being balanced by its short range nature
Competitive against single wield melee? Maybe. Until you go up against some one who is wielding medium, melee weapons properly by dual wielding medium axes as an example. That's 16 + 6BAL + 6 Bonus vs. 20 + 6STR + 6 Bonus.

4th the underbarrel launcher. while yes being not being as good as a medium class EXD weapon. its an extra weapon you get ready to go at all time, not takeing a extra hand slot. it also give you the benefit of a demo rig of not needing to prime any grenade you trow tossed in. well worth it. but wait there is more. its not even on the banned or restricted weapon list like the medium EXD weapon is https://gyazo.com/225f27a87be8bca58bcd8717e55ef7ce
What you say is true, but doesn't detract from my argument in combat performance.

5th charge shot being bad o_O ? its a 2 round cooldown that apply 6 extra damage to your attack. it get insane value on the HMG as you only need to hit 1 of your 3 attack to do 7+6BAL +6bonus =19 damage aoe and thats at the very minimum. sure if you run heavy caliber with a 2 hander you dont get as much value. but thats not the ability being bad. even adding 4 damage as a free action it still good
Whilst all BAL weapons can have heavy caliber. H pistols, the two rifles and the shotgun can cap out their bonus damage before charged shot takes effect. Making charged shot near useless in these cases.

6th overdrive while working in a similar way than cleave you. forget to mention that on hit, it let you attack an extra target in RANGE thats 30 meter away for regular BAL weapon or INFINITY for a sniper wich is again unless you dont have a LOS a free shot at anyone you want in the fight thats a big leg up over cleave that require 2 ppl to be huging each other in melee range to be used
You mean Overdrive works in a similar way to [swipe], only at range. Overdrive has a 3 round cooldown regardless if you hit or miss on not one, but two attacks. You're sacrificing an ability slot that has to roll once to hit, then rolling a second time (the actually ability part) to be any use. A double gamble for a semi-useful, but not great ability.

7th while magasine toss not being the best thing around in most fight as it require you to be in a team you can use it to give your whole BAL buddy team burn proc at the cost of a move action. and if you want to be cheeky. all use a underbarrel launcher and use it to all load a speciality grenade into it. for either mass AOE or cover the whole enemy side of the battle field in flame with incendiary grenade. or mass emp. at the cost of a single grenade. its cheeky but funny.
Magazine toss does not affect underslung launcher attachment. Only your equipped ballistic weapons with BAL ammo.
 
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#6
i have to agree you made some very good counter argument. while i still dont agree with the shotgun. as a dual M axe need to hit all 5 hit to equal the output of a shotgun. while still haveing lower status proc chance and a higher stat cost in accuracy. but thats not the main issue we are here for.

if we boil it down. to the basic its not as much as BAL being underpower as much as primitive STR outshineing it. as MAE weapon dont outclass BAL. ( atleast i dont think so ? ) witch is also made whost with under performing ability. i took a few hour to think about all of this and here is what i think woud be some fix. or lead toward a fix i came up with.

primitive construction
we have 3 weapon mods that change a weapon to another type of weapon. while i im not a DEV i can only imagine the goal of those was to give a weapon a proc that is rather unique to a weapon of a another class at the cost of some damage. in the case of primitve construction on a BAL weapon while haveing the desired effect of giveing a proc the weapon usualy cant get in its class. it also give it range. makeing it a double buff. the easy fix woud be to remove the added bleed. leaveing you with a lower damage BAL weapon. wich woud be more balanced. the issue with that fix however is that primitive construction on a non bal weapon namely MAE or EXD woud become pointless. that is a problem wich will be pretty had to tackle. to wich i have no real answer for atm. for the ability side of the issue tho

overwatch
the issue with overwatch is that you spend a standard action to try and negate the target a move action for a turn. with the current action economie a standard action is much more valuable than a move one. the ability coud be changed to require a move action to use. forceing you to stand still to keep a watch on the area for that turn. that way you spend a move action to deny the same to the other team. favoreing the user. since it has the potential to keep more than 1 target at bay

charged shot
the issue stated with this one is that often the 6 damage bonus is reached naturaly before the ability take effect. that coud be easyly fixed with giveing it a similar effect as SNK assasinate, of raiseing the bonus damage cap. unlike assasinate tho only for the charged shot. and maybe not all the way to +12 neither.

overdrive
honestly im not even sure this need a buff. it has the same CD as cleave ( i had the name right ) the main thing setting those apart is that cleave require 2 target to be in melee range next to each other to be used as overdrive can be used at any range but fail to activate if the inital attack does not hit, this is an issue for single hit weapon only as a automatic weapon will usualy get at least 1 hit in to trigger the effect. we coud change it so that it trigger even if the first attack miss but im not convinced its needed as the number of senario where you have 2 target at any range in LOS is FAR more common than haveing 2 ppl huging each other in front of a melee build char

magasine toss
ok ill be honest i never seen anyone run this and it is pretty bad. this might be on the wild side but we coud scrap it and replace it with a new ability.

magasine dump
5m AOE attack 2 traget inside + 1 target if you have an extanded magasine equiped. ( capped at 3 target to avoid extra arm graft triple weilding to get it out of control ) expend all the weapon amunition on use. 3 or 4ish round CD. this woud give some more AOE to the BAL player.

thats all i came up with. feel free to poke hole in it or submit your idea. and keep the constructive idea comeing ^.-
 
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